As always, great analysis, Ryan. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm noticing a bit of a discrepancy here. You say that the Dones are likely to be part of groups like the FFRF, but did you say elsewhere that the Dones were NOT trying to convince others to leave religion? I think you said that something like 75% of Zealous Atheists tried to convince others to leave religion,but it was only like 5% of Dones. My impression is that the Dones were "checked out" more than anything.
I wonder if God Shaped Hole is no longer a good way to think about this. Maybe the better question is - Do they experience awe or transcendence? And that question would also answer the question I have is: How do they spend their time? I think God Shaped Hole assumes Christianity.
A very interesting comment. I'm very much a Done myself but I think that finding awe is one of the most important things to find in life equal to things like love and peace. Our brains are definitely wired to experience awe and I feel sorry for folks who don't experience it (or don't give themselves time to find it). Personally I most often find awe in nature (mountains, forests) but I certainly wouldn't view that experience as being spiritual.
I wonder about the label. "Done" suggesting trying or experiencing something and then letting it go. I wonder how many "Dones" grew up in unchurched families and never experienced religion. Can you be "done" with something that you never experienced and have no real knowledge about?
If the group tends to be older, it would make sense that most of them grew up with some form of religion, just based on how common going to church was in America in the past. I suspect the younger ones would be more mixed between growing up religious and growing up non-religious.
If the research question being asked is, "Does every human being actually yearn for God or some Higher Power?" then "Done" suggests "done with yearning".
But I agree with you that, in a general religious context, I associate "done" with being done with a particular religious community and practice – so that you could be "done" but not "none"; still a believer, but too burned out and alienated to keep participating.
Ryan has actually answered that. He recently posted a graph (I cannot locate it now), that charted the previous level of engagement in organized religion by current Nones (including all his categories of Nones -- SBNR, NiNo's etc.). It is helpful for evaluating how immersed in "the religious language game" (Wittgenstein) were those who are current None's.
I recall that SBNR showed higher past engagement in their religion than do people who are now active in the Episcopalian faith. (Ryan, correct me if I am misremembering!)
Interesting. I probably fall into the Done group myself. I’m the younger side of the age distribution and I wouldn’t have guessed that the Dones are the oldest group on average. But I guess it makes sense, because I think my dad would absolutely be a Done too and so I figure he’s probably more typical.
On the question of whether there is a God-shaped hole among the Dones, isn't the fact that so many of the Dones are so rigorous, so “evangelical” about their irreligiosity the very evidence of a God-shaped hole?
You correctly note his point in this piece “that humankind has a craving for God ‘that he tries in vain to fill with everything around him.’” This doesn't mean that we should expect everyone to attend church or pray at least some of the time. Rather, as you show, the Dones have filled their God-shaped hole with “everything around them”: ardent atheism (joining the Freedom From Religion Foundation to spread their “faith” in there being no religion).
I would humbly submit this is what many others do with ideology and/or socio-political activism, on both the left (especially the case with Marxism) and on the right (see especially the religious devotion and totallizing effect that libertarianism and identitarianism have on adherents).
Ryan can correct me if I’m wrong about this, but I thought Dones and New/Evangelical/Reddit Atheists were considered separate categories (in other words, the Dones aren’t neccessarily antitheists.)
FFRF is a political organization that seeks to protect the separation of church and state. There are many religious people who are members. It is not an atheist organization by any stretch, although, like many political organizations, I am sure there are atheist members. It is in no way an organization that promotes atheism.
I think FFRF is more about reducing the effect of religion in politics and governance/separation of church and state but would be less about convincing or not convincing people not to be religious. But I’m not super familiar with them so I could be wrong.
To "educate the public on matters relating to nontheism" whilst holding the view that "to be free from religion is an advantage for individuals" go beyond the Baptists' view of separating church and state.
I don’t know about the Baptists’ version of separation of church and state but you might be right that they do advocacy for giving up religion. That could definitely fall under ‘to educate the public on matters relating to non theism’. I also know that there is a meme that goes around among atheists that says that many Americans hate us, so education could also be about making atheists seem less scary. But I don’t know. I never felt hated for being atheist so I don’t really get into that stuff much.
Ryan, on September 27 you noted, "the Zealous Atheists and the Dones are majority male." I think that finding is so significant that it bears carrying forward into today's post.
I have some hunches about that, bearing on the changing nature of what young men may regard as "knowledge" in today's digitized, data-dominated discourse. If the knowledge conveyed in a religious community doesn't cohere with such "data," it must not be true.
Rather, do they have a small-g God shaped hole, one satisfied by a center of meaning and source of value (see Tillich, H.R. Niebuhr, W. James) that is not "supernatural"), e.g. "Trump's real god is money and power and his worship is bullying rancor?
Seems to me that what people are reaching for in the quote attributed to Pascal is pretty clearly presaged in Ecclesiastes 3:11.
"He has made everything beautiful in its time. He has also set eternity in the human heart; yet no one can fathom what God has done from beginning to end."
The dones' frustration with that latter point leads them to either never apprehend, or to abandon the struggle. Al makes a good point - done implies tried-and-abandoned, which is a different situation in my mind than never-examined, a category that (seems to) encompass Deborah's children.
Coincidentally, I think the psychology and behavioral economics wrapped around that is exceptionally interesting when viewed in the context of what Dan Gilbert proposed about Cartesian vs. Spinozan disbelief.
As a 50-year-old Done (full of awe/wonder and not at all rigorous or "evangelical" anymore) who was an ardent believer for 44 years, part of my journey has been coming to understand that what I thought for most of my life was a God-shaped hole was actually a parent-shaped hole. I have found psychological and relational explanations about the transmission of religious and spiritual identity to be more intellectually satisfying than religious ones.
I am curious if my experience is true for others--does a sincere longing for a relationship with God akin to hyper-religiosity/scrupulosity correlate with insecure attachment to one's caregivers? (I see this as different from a lower-demand, less seeking-focused faith that I assume is commonly passed on by securely attached believers). My four securely-attached teens and young adults are also Dones and don't seem to have any of the yearning for God that defined most of my life.
On the premise for the post, I wonder if we can make a distinction: Pascal and others using his quote or the “God-shaped hole” paraphrase are asserting a metaphysical claim. You’re investigating a sociological question about behavior.
This is disturbing, but not surprising to me. However, I do wonder if the absence of a consciously-experienced “God-shaped hole” is the same as an ontological absence of such a hole. Could it be that at least some of the fully “done” lack of the hole is a result of never having encountered a decent example of what it actually looks like to have such a hole filled, even hypothetically? People my parents’ age who are agnostic or even atheist often say they are somewhat jealous of faith, because it seems to them like it would be comforting. People closer to my age who are totally secular often say they can’t imagine what it would even hypothetically be like to have spiritual or religious beliefs, or any sense of metaphysics at all, let alone classical theism. Maybe we have reached a tipping point of lack of “density” of believers in cosmopolitan settings where people can actually go through childhood to adulthood without ever getting to know well anyone who has some sort of traditional faith and allows others to know it. Maybe they have never even been invited to an Abrahamic life cycle ceremony, period. Maybe they literally don’t know what it looks like for lack of even passive examples.
As a Done who experienced a God-shaped hole and it's filling for most of my life I don't fit the sample you are hypothesizing about, but in my experience currently, all of my secular friends and children and myself have a lot of close contact and friendship with sincere believers. In diverse Southern California, at my daughter's public high school she is the only non-Christian person on her flag football team, where she holds hands and stands with her teammates for student-led prayer before every game despite her own lack of beliefs. When you look at stats about the prevalence of Christianity in the U.S., I find it hard to believe that many Dones lack active or passive examples of true faith. I think we need to look elsewhere to make sense of the Dones.
I have been a sincere believer myself and agree that faith is comforting--it provides certainty in an otherwise uncertain world and answers anxiety-provoking existential questions that we all face, if we are honest. Some of my kids at times have envied the spiritual community some of their friends enjoy. But I don't think those experiences point to a God-shaped hole. And those Dones who "can't imagine" spiritual beliefs are also telling us they don't experience spiritual longing. True, our lack of longing doesn't prove an ontological absence, but then others' experience of spiritual longing doesn't prove an ontological presence either.
As always, great analysis, Ryan. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm noticing a bit of a discrepancy here. You say that the Dones are likely to be part of groups like the FFRF, but did you say elsewhere that the Dones were NOT trying to convince others to leave religion? I think you said that something like 75% of Zealous Atheists tried to convince others to leave religion,but it was only like 5% of Dones. My impression is that the Dones were "checked out" more than anything.
Good points. Mea culpa in mixing up the two groups of nones.
I wonder if God Shaped Hole is no longer a good way to think about this. Maybe the better question is - Do they experience awe or transcendence? And that question would also answer the question I have is: How do they spend their time? I think God Shaped Hole assumes Christianity.
A very interesting comment. I'm very much a Done myself but I think that finding awe is one of the most important things to find in life equal to things like love and peace. Our brains are definitely wired to experience awe and I feel sorry for folks who don't experience it (or don't give themselves time to find it). Personally I most often find awe in nature (mountains, forests) but I certainly wouldn't view that experience as being spiritual.
I wonder about the label. "Done" suggesting trying or experiencing something and then letting it go. I wonder how many "Dones" grew up in unchurched families and never experienced religion. Can you be "done" with something that you never experienced and have no real knowledge about?
If the group tends to be older, it would make sense that most of them grew up with some form of religion, just based on how common going to church was in America in the past. I suspect the younger ones would be more mixed between growing up religious and growing up non-religious.
If the research question being asked is, "Does every human being actually yearn for God or some Higher Power?" then "Done" suggests "done with yearning".
But I agree with you that, in a general religious context, I associate "done" with being done with a particular religious community and practice – so that you could be "done" but not "none"; still a believer, but too burned out and alienated to keep participating.
Ryan has actually answered that. He recently posted a graph (I cannot locate it now), that charted the previous level of engagement in organized religion by current Nones (including all his categories of Nones -- SBNR, NiNo's etc.). It is helpful for evaluating how immersed in "the religious language game" (Wittgenstein) were those who are current None's.
I recall that SBNR showed higher past engagement in their religion than do people who are now active in the Episcopalian faith. (Ryan, correct me if I am misremembering!)
Interesting. I probably fall into the Done group myself. I’m the younger side of the age distribution and I wouldn’t have guessed that the Dones are the oldest group on average. But I guess it makes sense, because I think my dad would absolutely be a Done too and so I figure he’s probably more typical.
On the question of whether there is a God-shaped hole among the Dones, isn't the fact that so many of the Dones are so rigorous, so “evangelical” about their irreligiosity the very evidence of a God-shaped hole?
You correctly note his point in this piece “that humankind has a craving for God ‘that he tries in vain to fill with everything around him.’” This doesn't mean that we should expect everyone to attend church or pray at least some of the time. Rather, as you show, the Dones have filled their God-shaped hole with “everything around them”: ardent atheism (joining the Freedom From Religion Foundation to spread their “faith” in there being no religion).
I would humbly submit this is what many others do with ideology and/or socio-political activism, on both the left (especially the case with Marxism) and on the right (see especially the religious devotion and totallizing effect that libertarianism and identitarianism have on adherents).
Ryan can correct me if I’m wrong about this, but I thought Dones and New/Evangelical/Reddit Atheists were considered separate categories (in other words, the Dones aren’t neccessarily antitheists.)
Fair point. Mea culpa for mixing up the two.
FFRF is a political organization that seeks to protect the separation of church and state. There are many religious people who are members. It is not an atheist organization by any stretch, although, like many political organizations, I am sure there are atheist members. It is in no way an organization that promotes atheism.
So, um.
I actually know the answer to this question. We surveyed the members of FFRF about a year ago. We got over 11,000 respondents.
62% of them self-ID as atheists.
19 of them. Not 19 percent. 19 total out of 11,422 (.2%) told us that they identify as "religious"
So this statement is empirically false: "There are many religious people who are members"
Wow. I am wrong and stand corrected.
Thanks. You saved me the trouble of digging through my inbox for the reference to your survey!
I think FFRF is more about reducing the effect of religion in politics and governance/separation of church and state but would be less about convincing or not convincing people not to be religious. But I’m not super familiar with them so I could be wrong.
To "educate the public on matters relating to nontheism" whilst holding the view that "to be free from religion is an advantage for individuals" go beyond the Baptists' view of separating church and state.
https://ffrf.org/frequently-asked-question/about-the-foundation/what-is-the-foundations-purpose/
I don’t know about the Baptists’ version of separation of church and state but you might be right that they do advocacy for giving up religion. That could definitely fall under ‘to educate the public on matters relating to non theism’. I also know that there is a meme that goes around among atheists that says that many Americans hate us, so education could also be about making atheists seem less scary. But I don’t know. I never felt hated for being atheist so I don’t really get into that stuff much.
Any Christian holding hatred toward someone else needs a mirror (or so we must continually remind ourselves).
Ryan, on September 27 you noted, "the Zealous Atheists and the Dones are majority male." I think that finding is so significant that it bears carrying forward into today's post.
I have some hunches about that, bearing on the changing nature of what young men may regard as "knowledge" in today's digitized, data-dominated discourse. If the knowledge conveyed in a religious community doesn't cohere with such "data," it must not be true.
Rather, do they have a small-g God shaped hole, one satisfied by a center of meaning and source of value (see Tillich, H.R. Niebuhr, W. James) that is not "supernatural"), e.g. "Trump's real god is money and power and his worship is bullying rancor?
Seems to me that what people are reaching for in the quote attributed to Pascal is pretty clearly presaged in Ecclesiastes 3:11.
"He has made everything beautiful in its time. He has also set eternity in the human heart; yet no one can fathom what God has done from beginning to end."
The dones' frustration with that latter point leads them to either never apprehend, or to abandon the struggle. Al makes a good point - done implies tried-and-abandoned, which is a different situation in my mind than never-examined, a category that (seems to) encompass Deborah's children.
Coincidentally, I think the psychology and behavioral economics wrapped around that is exceptionally interesting when viewed in the context of what Dan Gilbert proposed about Cartesian vs. Spinozan disbelief.
http://www.jimdavies.org/summaries/Gilbert1991.html
Fascinating review--thanks for sharing.
As a Done myslef that grew up White Evangelical, I think a lot about the concept of the "God-Shaped" hole and the Donut Man (https://youtu.be/r43MhkW-rvY?si=1HfLdny_bvH2pRta).
I think it's more like a sphincter than it is a puzzle piece; some people have a very tight hole and some people have their religiosity prolapsed.
As a 50-year-old Done (full of awe/wonder and not at all rigorous or "evangelical" anymore) who was an ardent believer for 44 years, part of my journey has been coming to understand that what I thought for most of my life was a God-shaped hole was actually a parent-shaped hole. I have found psychological and relational explanations about the transmission of religious and spiritual identity to be more intellectually satisfying than religious ones.
I am curious if my experience is true for others--does a sincere longing for a relationship with God akin to hyper-religiosity/scrupulosity correlate with insecure attachment to one's caregivers? (I see this as different from a lower-demand, less seeking-focused faith that I assume is commonly passed on by securely attached believers). My four securely-attached teens and young adults are also Dones and don't seem to have any of the yearning for God that defined most of my life.
On the premise for the post, I wonder if we can make a distinction: Pascal and others using his quote or the “God-shaped hole” paraphrase are asserting a metaphysical claim. You’re investigating a sociological question about behavior.
This is disturbing, but not surprising to me. However, I do wonder if the absence of a consciously-experienced “God-shaped hole” is the same as an ontological absence of such a hole. Could it be that at least some of the fully “done” lack of the hole is a result of never having encountered a decent example of what it actually looks like to have such a hole filled, even hypothetically? People my parents’ age who are agnostic or even atheist often say they are somewhat jealous of faith, because it seems to them like it would be comforting. People closer to my age who are totally secular often say they can’t imagine what it would even hypothetically be like to have spiritual or religious beliefs, or any sense of metaphysics at all, let alone classical theism. Maybe we have reached a tipping point of lack of “density” of believers in cosmopolitan settings where people can actually go through childhood to adulthood without ever getting to know well anyone who has some sort of traditional faith and allows others to know it. Maybe they have never even been invited to an Abrahamic life cycle ceremony, period. Maybe they literally don’t know what it looks like for lack of even passive examples.
As a Done who experienced a God-shaped hole and it's filling for most of my life I don't fit the sample you are hypothesizing about, but in my experience currently, all of my secular friends and children and myself have a lot of close contact and friendship with sincere believers. In diverse Southern California, at my daughter's public high school she is the only non-Christian person on her flag football team, where she holds hands and stands with her teammates for student-led prayer before every game despite her own lack of beliefs. When you look at stats about the prevalence of Christianity in the U.S., I find it hard to believe that many Dones lack active or passive examples of true faith. I think we need to look elsewhere to make sense of the Dones.
I have been a sincere believer myself and agree that faith is comforting--it provides certainty in an otherwise uncertain world and answers anxiety-provoking existential questions that we all face, if we are honest. Some of my kids at times have envied the spiritual community some of their friends enjoy. But I don't think those experiences point to a God-shaped hole. And those Dones who "can't imagine" spiritual beliefs are also telling us they don't experience spiritual longing. True, our lack of longing doesn't prove an ontological absence, but then others' experience of spiritual longing doesn't prove an ontological presence either.
I second the need to investigate these claims empirically (admitting the possibility these may be true even if I tipped my hat at the outset).