My personal theory about the increased sense of division from LDS (that you mentioned) is from the Trump era. I think when the respondent reads "5 years ago" in 2022 they think "before Trump." LDS obviously have a strong Republican base, but there are a lot complicated feelings for Trump compared to Romney. A lot of LDS people have a soft spot for immigration which is a key Trump issue. I wouldn't be surprised if young LDS people felt this division more though since they are more politically diverse than older members.
We LDS meet in very strict geographical wards and can’t self-segregate into more liberal and conservative congregations. Could that contribute to why we feel the political diversity more?
Personally, I really don’t like to hear politics at church. References to having compassion for various groups of people or things in the world are fine with me (to some extent isn’t that pretty Jesus-y?), but I quickly get turned off if it gets more explicitly political. I once heard a reference to executive orders and thought “please please no, there are so many other places to talk about that!”
Frances Kissling once said on the On Being podcast: "What is it in your own position that gives you trouble? What is it in the position of the other that you are attracted to? Where do you have doubts?" I wouldn't mind politics from the pulpit so much, if it came from a place of humility and grace. My congregation has an obvious and growing political polarization, and those of us on the other side feel like we must keep silent if we want to remain in fellowship with others. But what kind of fellowship is it, if I can't speak (with humility and grace) from the moral foundations that God has given me?
I'm not 100% sure I agree with the interpretation that "They see Sunday worship as a respite from all the Culture Wars". Sure a lot of churchgoing people want politics avoided entirely, but a lot of others are fine with talking about specific issues and even would like to hear their pastor preach about them more — so long as the pastor is on the "right side" of the issues.
But talk about division per se opens up a whole different can of worms. It isn't avoiding hot-button issues entirely and it also isn't saying "hooray for our side, down with their side" — the two options that are _comforting_ to people. Talking about the bare facts of our nation's dividedness, from the pulpit, is more of a way to afflict the comfortable.
Just for context, the LDS church has a lay clergy at the local level, and its the members in the pews, not that clergy, who deliver the weekly sermons (though full-time leaders do speak at regional and international conferences). This would complicate LDS responses to these questions.
PRRI has an agenda, something the GSS and Election surveys do not.
My Jewish experience, spanning two rabbis at my congregation and one at another, to say nothing of many others over 60 years, leaves a similar impression. In the Civil Rights era correction of wrongs with legislation was a common topic. So were the messages of Goldwater as a threat. The Vietnam War had few Rabbinical supporters.
But then and now, Israel has been central to all Jews and the recent antiSemitic events have become central to American Jews. So that element of political discussion has remained with divisions among the congregants mostly minor.
What the Christian data shows is what we find in Judaism as well. The role of the clergy is to relate scripture to personal experiences and personal potentials. There is no ambiguity that right after the Ten Commandments in Exodus comes a few chapters on civil law. Fairness and decency to others is the core of most religion, Western and Eastern. So the message of clergy that gets acceptance are those which have near universal agreement. Treat people nicely, don't retaliate based on ethnicity if not directly threatened. Wish ample sustenance for everyone, either through policies that you think will enable their prosperity or by serving the less fortunate, an initative that most churches have in some form.
And for us, we have a police car outside our front door, funded by a Federal grant, for a valid reason. Be appreciative of our safety and the negative consequences of external hostility or internal disunity. Those are topics weaved into the Rabbis' sermons from either Biblical or traditional Rabbinical sources.
What I find interesting is that Jesus was all about freeing the disenfranchised from political and religious oppression. That’s why they wanted him to be dead.
I'd be interested, as a base stat in the survey, to have them also answer "Has the church become more political or has politics become more aggressive towards faith matters?" I believe this can help us determine the lens they view this topic through. Are they viewing this as a political question or a faith based question.
I’ve been unsubscribed to this substack for over six months and do not get or want the posts but I am still being charged for it. I have tried many ways, including messaging Ryan Burge himself, to stop being charged. So I am resorting to the comment lines to try to reach someone who can find a way to stop charging me. All the so-called help leads to dead ends and every month anther charge comes in. It’s beginning to feel very unpleasant. mailto:huneven@me.com or huneven@gmail. com
I’ve been unsubscribed to this substack for over six months but I am still being charged for it. I have tried many ways, including messaging Ryan Burge himself, to stop being charged. So I am resorting to the comment lines to try to reach someone who can find a way to stop charging me. It’s beginning to feel very unpleasant. huneven@gmail.com
Putnam did a great series of case studies on this topic in "American Grace," in addition to presenting a bunch of data. A few highlights:
- He also found much hesitation about politics in the LDS and most other majority-white Christian churches.
- Both in his data an in the case studies, he found Black churches and Jewish Synagogues to be exceptions, talking frequently about politics.
- In general, his data showed strongly that more-liberal groups tended to talk the most about politics.
I'm curious to see a slice for Pentecostal and Charismatic groups from last year. The whole "Seven Mountains" theology is getting a lot of press. It's not clear to me how much that's gotten into church life.
This is probably one of the things about churches that non-churchgoers are most deluded on: the belief that opining on politics from the pulpit is common, especially among us evangelicals. I generally agree that church is seen as a respite from the culture war, social media, etc. And as a place where the emphasis is on sanctification, walking closer with Christ. Evangelicalism is especially known for its pietism, which for good or ill emphasizes our personal journey and de-emphasizes social causes. I think that in most evangelical churches, too much political talk from the pulpit would be seen as gauche and vaguely sacrilegious, bringing such an ugly business into an environment in which we're supposed to grow in Christ and better understand the Word together.
Great writeup! Loved the numbers on LDS.
My personal theory about the increased sense of division from LDS (that you mentioned) is from the Trump era. I think when the respondent reads "5 years ago" in 2022 they think "before Trump." LDS obviously have a strong Republican base, but there are a lot complicated feelings for Trump compared to Romney. A lot of LDS people have a soft spot for immigration which is a key Trump issue. I wouldn't be surprised if young LDS people felt this division more though since they are more politically diverse than older members.
We LDS meet in very strict geographical wards and can’t self-segregate into more liberal and conservative congregations. Could that contribute to why we feel the political diversity more?
Yes - i like this point. LDS are assigned to a ward and so they aren't choosing based on "vibes" they like 😂
Nice post!
Personally, I really don’t like to hear politics at church. References to having compassion for various groups of people or things in the world are fine with me (to some extent isn’t that pretty Jesus-y?), but I quickly get turned off if it gets more explicitly political. I once heard a reference to executive orders and thought “please please no, there are so many other places to talk about that!”
Fascinating. I would love to see it broken down by liberal vs conservative congregations, and maybe urban vs rural.
RE: urban vs rural: Me, too.
I grew up in rural OK and worked for 52 years in urban: night and day....a real eye opener for an Okie farm girl.
Frances Kissling once said on the On Being podcast: "What is it in your own position that gives you trouble? What is it in the position of the other that you are attracted to? Where do you have doubts?" I wouldn't mind politics from the pulpit so much, if it came from a place of humility and grace. My congregation has an obvious and growing political polarization, and those of us on the other side feel like we must keep silent if we want to remain in fellowship with others. But what kind of fellowship is it, if I can't speak (with humility and grace) from the moral foundations that God has given me?
No. Next question?
I'm not 100% sure I agree with the interpretation that "They see Sunday worship as a respite from all the Culture Wars". Sure a lot of churchgoing people want politics avoided entirely, but a lot of others are fine with talking about specific issues and even would like to hear their pastor preach about them more — so long as the pastor is on the "right side" of the issues.
But talk about division per se opens up a whole different can of worms. It isn't avoiding hot-button issues entirely and it also isn't saying "hooray for our side, down with their side" — the two options that are _comforting_ to people. Talking about the bare facts of our nation's dividedness, from the pulpit, is more of a way to afflict the comfortable.
Just for context, the LDS church has a lay clergy at the local level, and its the members in the pews, not that clergy, who deliver the weekly sermons (though full-time leaders do speak at regional and international conferences). This would complicate LDS responses to these questions.
PRRI has an agenda, something the GSS and Election surveys do not.
My Jewish experience, spanning two rabbis at my congregation and one at another, to say nothing of many others over 60 years, leaves a similar impression. In the Civil Rights era correction of wrongs with legislation was a common topic. So were the messages of Goldwater as a threat. The Vietnam War had few Rabbinical supporters.
But then and now, Israel has been central to all Jews and the recent antiSemitic events have become central to American Jews. So that element of political discussion has remained with divisions among the congregants mostly minor.
What the Christian data shows is what we find in Judaism as well. The role of the clergy is to relate scripture to personal experiences and personal potentials. There is no ambiguity that right after the Ten Commandments in Exodus comes a few chapters on civil law. Fairness and decency to others is the core of most religion, Western and Eastern. So the message of clergy that gets acceptance are those which have near universal agreement. Treat people nicely, don't retaliate based on ethnicity if not directly threatened. Wish ample sustenance for everyone, either through policies that you think will enable their prosperity or by serving the less fortunate, an initative that most churches have in some form.
And for us, we have a police car outside our front door, funded by a Federal grant, for a valid reason. Be appreciative of our safety and the negative consequences of external hostility or internal disunity. Those are topics weaved into the Rabbis' sermons from either Biblical or traditional Rabbinical sources.
What I find interesting is that Jesus was all about freeing the disenfranchised from political and religious oppression. That’s why they wanted him to be dead.
I'd be interested, as a base stat in the survey, to have them also answer "Has the church become more political or has politics become more aggressive towards faith matters?" I believe this can help us determine the lens they view this topic through. Are they viewing this as a political question or a faith based question.
I’ve been unsubscribed to this substack for over six months and do not get or want the posts but I am still being charged for it. I have tried many ways, including messaging Ryan Burge himself, to stop being charged. So I am resorting to the comment lines to try to reach someone who can find a way to stop charging me. All the so-called help leads to dead ends and every month anther charge comes in. It’s beginning to feel very unpleasant. mailto:huneven@me.com or huneven@gmail. com
Have you tried contacting your credit card company and contesting the charges?
I’ve been unsubscribed to this substack for over six months but I am still being charged for it. I have tried many ways, including messaging Ryan Burge himself, to stop being charged. So I am resorting to the comment lines to try to reach someone who can find a way to stop charging me. It’s beginning to feel very unpleasant. huneven@gmail.com
Putnam did a great series of case studies on this topic in "American Grace," in addition to presenting a bunch of data. A few highlights:
- He also found much hesitation about politics in the LDS and most other majority-white Christian churches.
- Both in his data an in the case studies, he found Black churches and Jewish Synagogues to be exceptions, talking frequently about politics.
- In general, his data showed strongly that more-liberal groups tended to talk the most about politics.
I'm curious to see a slice for Pentecostal and Charismatic groups from last year. The whole "Seven Mountains" theology is getting a lot of press. It's not clear to me how much that's gotten into church life.
This is probably one of the things about churches that non-churchgoers are most deluded on: the belief that opining on politics from the pulpit is common, especially among us evangelicals. I generally agree that church is seen as a respite from the culture war, social media, etc. And as a place where the emphasis is on sanctification, walking closer with Christ. Evangelicalism is especially known for its pietism, which for good or ill emphasizes our personal journey and de-emphasizes social causes. I think that in most evangelical churches, too much political talk from the pulpit would be seen as gauche and vaguely sacrilegious, bringing such an ugly business into an environment in which we're supposed to grow in Christ and better understand the Word together.
Did I miss data on black congregations? I think white congregations can avoid talking about politics. Marginalized populations can't afford not to...