We Jews have other survey sources that probe these questions in a more detailed way. The leading organization for doing this seems to be the Cohen Center at Brandeis University, which surveyed my community in 2022. https://www.brandeis.edu/cmjs/community-studies/delaware.html I was part of their random representative sample for that one. Filling out the questionnaire took a while. They basically concluded that we fall into four categories as Jews. About 40% are personally observant in some way and engaged with the community, about 20% have a DIY religion of personal practice but negligible community ties, 20% have communal attachment but no personal belief or practice, and 20% identify as Jewish culturally but largely opted out.
There are some important differences between Brandeis and Ryan's survey. These are all people who identify themselves as Jewish as their primary religion, not as secondary afterthoughts. The survey has a sponsor with an agenda to act on the results, that is shift the unengaged to engaged and ask them for money each year, or allocate money already under their control in a different way.
Matt, the prof who tabulated and presented the findings, indicated that the results of my area were similar to regional results that the Cohen Center had done elsewhere, so probably can be generalized.
Great analysis, I am always trying to understand what factors can predict a deep commitment to faith to the next generation. Who is succeeding and why.
Very interesting stuff here. There is a small branch of Judaism that people often overlook due to its small size known as Reconstruction. Though this movement has often influenced the larger Jewish branches. One of their insights is that Judaism is best thought of as a civilization and as such it includes religion but also other things like art, philosophy, and host of others. Maybe this is a way of looking at cultural Catholics. In Chicago where I grew up individual Catholic Church's were known by a sort of ethnic affiliation -- Irish, Polish, Italian, etc.
You find ethnic churches in Orthodoxy even more so than in Catholicism. Though many of those churches in the US are either dying, or changing with an influx of converts not of the ethnic founders' blood.
When most people who are asked why they are a Catholic, they respond they were born and raised that way. I too am a cradle Catholic.
But, I have a different answer to that question. First, I believe there is a creator or God. Second, I believe Jesus is God. Third, I believe Jesus started a Church.
Now I know this is contentious because if it is true, then the world should belong to the religion that Jesus founded. And they obviously don’t.
I am on a cruise ship and there is a priest celebrating Mass each day and the number attending is about 40-45 so this is about 2% of an older demographic. Most are from the US and Canada. For Sunday it was about 80-90 or 4% of the passengers. Why aren’t there more if 30% of this demographic identify as a Catholic. Is it mainly, they do not believe?
That is my thesis. They really don’t believe. But could they be led to believe if presented with the evidence and logic?
Jerry I don’t know if you have heard of Justin Brierley he is podcaster who talks to atheists and Christians, well worth listening to but he believes that most people aren’t convinced by reason and facts, most have an emotional or supernatural story that drives their adult conversions mainly.
It is actually the real version of Pascal’s wager when Blaise Pascal showed his unbelieving friends that if they were purely rational they would believe in God but man is not rational.
I am going to disagree. Since I don’t see a rational argument presented anywhere, maybe there is one that will be convincing. I have searched for a rational argument and haven’t seen one offered yet.
There is a God: proof that is overwhelmingly convincing exists. Jesus is God, proof beyond a reasonable doubt exists. Jesus started a Church, proof beyond a reasonable doubt exists.
I’m not denying many or most who believe it is because of emotional arguments but the great majority do not believe when the evidence is very strong but never presented.
I don’t disagree that catholic and Protestant apologists are critical but it just doesn’t seem like the reason and facts are what gets you all the way to belief in most cases. However, they has to be the foundation or once the emotion is gone your faith is not based on any substance as you said.
I feel I almost summoned this one into being after my comment on the last one 😄. Seriously though, it's really good to hear about "religious" vs. "cultural" identity but it would be even more interesting to hear of any data on direct questions on "intensity of relationship to community" vs. proxy metrics such as attendance and prayer.
Makes sense. For Judaism, ethnicity and religion are nearly identical because Judaism strongly rejected converts until recently. Rome had rules about marriage that performed the same function less strongly. Protestantism and Islam went the other way, trying to bring in as many different ethnic groups as possible.
Mormons have a word for this: “Jack Mormons,” i.e., not really religious but identifying (to some extent) with the Mormon culture they grew up in. Also may indicate someone who breaks the rules (drinking, smoking) without dis-associating with the Mormon community. I feel like this is a known term in the Rocky Mountain states, not sure about anywhere else.
Nice work Ryan, this was really interesting to me and look forward to seeing more data about this. Thanks
We Jews have other survey sources that probe these questions in a more detailed way. The leading organization for doing this seems to be the Cohen Center at Brandeis University, which surveyed my community in 2022. https://www.brandeis.edu/cmjs/community-studies/delaware.html I was part of their random representative sample for that one. Filling out the questionnaire took a while. They basically concluded that we fall into four categories as Jews. About 40% are personally observant in some way and engaged with the community, about 20% have a DIY religion of personal practice but negligible community ties, 20% have communal attachment but no personal belief or practice, and 20% identify as Jewish culturally but largely opted out.
There are some important differences between Brandeis and Ryan's survey. These are all people who identify themselves as Jewish as their primary religion, not as secondary afterthoughts. The survey has a sponsor with an agenda to act on the results, that is shift the unengaged to engaged and ask them for money each year, or allocate money already under their control in a different way.
Matt, the prof who tabulated and presented the findings, indicated that the results of my area were similar to regional results that the Cohen Center had done elsewhere, so probably can be generalized.
Great analysis, I am always trying to understand what factors can predict a deep commitment to faith to the next generation. Who is succeeding and why.
Very interesting stuff here. There is a small branch of Judaism that people often overlook due to its small size known as Reconstruction. Though this movement has often influenced the larger Jewish branches. One of their insights is that Judaism is best thought of as a civilization and as such it includes religion but also other things like art, philosophy, and host of others. Maybe this is a way of looking at cultural Catholics. In Chicago where I grew up individual Catholic Church's were known by a sort of ethnic affiliation -- Irish, Polish, Italian, etc.
You find ethnic churches in Orthodoxy even more so than in Catholicism. Though many of those churches in the US are either dying, or changing with an influx of converts not of the ethnic founders' blood.
When most people who are asked why they are a Catholic, they respond they were born and raised that way. I too am a cradle Catholic.
But, I have a different answer to that question. First, I believe there is a creator or God. Second, I believe Jesus is God. Third, I believe Jesus started a Church.
Now I know this is contentious because if it is true, then the world should belong to the religion that Jesus founded. And they obviously don’t.
I am on a cruise ship and there is a priest celebrating Mass each day and the number attending is about 40-45 so this is about 2% of an older demographic. Most are from the US and Canada. For Sunday it was about 80-90 or 4% of the passengers. Why aren’t there more if 30% of this demographic identify as a Catholic. Is it mainly, they do not believe?
That is my thesis. They really don’t believe. But could they be led to believe if presented with the evidence and logic?
Jerry I don’t know if you have heard of Justin Brierley he is podcaster who talks to atheists and Christians, well worth listening to but he believes that most people aren’t convinced by reason and facts, most have an emotional or supernatural story that drives their adult conversions mainly.
It is actually the real version of Pascal’s wager when Blaise Pascal showed his unbelieving friends that if they were purely rational they would believe in God but man is not rational.
I am going to disagree. Since I don’t see a rational argument presented anywhere, maybe there is one that will be convincing. I have searched for a rational argument and haven’t seen one offered yet.
There is a God: proof that is overwhelmingly convincing exists. Jesus is God, proof beyond a reasonable doubt exists. Jesus started a Church, proof beyond a reasonable doubt exists.
I’m not denying many or most who believe it is because of emotional arguments but the great majority do not believe when the evidence is very strong but never presented.
I don’t disagree that catholic and Protestant apologists are critical but it just doesn’t seem like the reason and facts are what gets you all the way to belief in most cases. However, they has to be the foundation or once the emotion is gone your faith is not based on any substance as you said.
I feel I almost summoned this one into being after my comment on the last one 😄. Seriously though, it's really good to hear about "religious" vs. "cultural" identity but it would be even more interesting to hear of any data on direct questions on "intensity of relationship to community" vs. proxy metrics such as attendance and prayer.
Makes sense. For Judaism, ethnicity and religion are nearly identical because Judaism strongly rejected converts until recently. Rome had rules about marriage that performed the same function less strongly. Protestantism and Islam went the other way, trying to bring in as many different ethnic groups as possible.
Mormons have a word for this: “Jack Mormons,” i.e., not really religious but identifying (to some extent) with the Mormon culture they grew up in. Also may indicate someone who breaks the rules (drinking, smoking) without dis-associating with the Mormon community. I feel like this is a known term in the Rocky Mountain states, not sure about anywhere else.
Oops..one of your graphs (religious vs cultural) for Catholics is backward